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1. Mixed Media Watch - tracking media representations of mixed people on 19 Sep 2006 at 3:49 pm

   […] I would also recommend checking out the lengthy discussions that have been going on among MMW readers for the past few days about positive stereotypes here. […]

Comments

1. Nadia wrote:

   umm…”muslim” is a race? doesn’t she have fact-checkers?

   i do have to give her credit for facilitating this dialog, but posing “muslim” as a racial group (as if there aren’t white, black, latino, and asian muslims) is…pointless, and i hope those muslims set it straight.

   i hope i’ll be able to find this episode somewhere on youtube or something. i have to see it!

   Posted 11 Sep 2006 at 1:05 pm ¶

2. MizuWari wrote:

   I was just about to say…since when is Muslim a race?

   The Chinese who run the takeout place around my way in Brooklyn are all Muslims, serving halal Chinese food to the Muslim community in the area. Plenty of polyracial Muslims frequent there. They’d have a lot to say about it…if they cared about these things in the first place…

   Posted 11 Sep 2006 at 3:13 pm ¶

3. Tariq Nelson wrote:

   Apparently when they put the show together, they meant “Arab”/”Middle Easterner” when they said “Muslim”

   One of the Muslim women in the audience did indeed correct this and Tyra apologized for conflating Arab/Middle Eastern and Muslim

   You can’t even go by name. David Chapelle is Muslim and Idris Bashir, of the Indianapolis Colts, is NOT (at least last I heard)

   Posted 11 Sep 2006 at 4:55 pm ¶

4. Carrie wrote:

   Thank you for posting about this! I was just watching that show and, although the intention was nice, the topic “Who Has It Worse?” bothered me so much. As if it matters! They should be promoting tolerance, and ONLY tolerance. And I was hoping that maybe at least the end they will say something along the lines of “It doesn’t matter to say who has it worse, all that matters is that we eliminate discrimination” - and they soort of did, but not at all clearly. They actually had these racial relations professors from UCLA on who suggested that because the blacks were opressed the longest, they therefore have it worse (and then one of them tried to say that still that’s not what we should be looking at because everyone is discriminated against, but he was cut off.) While I wholly acknowledge the horrible things that African Americans have been through, and for many, sadly, continue to go through, saying that they “have it the worst” just makes everyone feel blacks are the only ones who go through such ordeals. I actually felt that on the show, the Arab woman seemed to have it “worse”, if the distinction should be made. I was completely outraged at how many people so bluntly said “since she looks like that, she’s a terrorist” - like that girl from the audience! (Btw, I actually missed that part and only saw it on the “Coming Up” - can somebody tell me what others’ reaction to her comment was? How did Tyra react?)

   Basically, I feel that this episode barely made me think the racial situation in our country is improving - if anything, it made me feel worse and absolutely horrified at some things that were said (and it did not make me feel any better when I went to the show’s website and saw a comment that said something along the lines of, “I’m shocked that an Asian woman is claiming racism”.) It taught me how the events of 9/11 promoted so much hatred within our own country, between our own citizens against one another and it makes me so sad. I just wish the show was done better and had made it clearer that the intent of the show was NOT to say that one group is more victimized than the other, but just to promote tolerance and equality. It could’ve been a great show.

   Posted 11 Sep 2006 at 6:25 pm ¶

5. IkoIko wrote:

   Strange show with conflicting messages. Problem arising, as always, from trying to compact too many mini-shows that don’t fit into one hour, however well-intentioned. I actually like Tyra as a host (her weird tics notwithstanding). She has potential, just needs better support. Fire the producers, writers, researchers, etc. She’ll does okay.

   Biggest gripe: No Native Americans/American Indian nation represented, identified, or profiled at any point on the show. Very narrowly trumps the “Muslim as racial category” misstep. Whoever planned this, the season two opener on 9/11 in the States, should be sacked.

   Show basically went as follows:

   Tyra recounts personal 9/11 memories, talks about why race matters, and ponders which one has it worse. Audience is sectioned off by race. She then introduces five women of White, Black, Muslim (sic), Latino and Asian descent talk about their respective discrimination experiences, each actually pretty gripping.

   The same five women were participants in the focus group that raised all the ruckus, and actually led to the most interesting/substantive part of the show. Random group of folks were asked a series of cringe inducing questions by moderator about the women– each wearing a number and dressed more or less in everyday clothes– based strictly upon first impressions.

   Moderator joins Tyra back onstage, express his surprise. The five women reappear to confront some of the focus group members who try to explain their answers and rationale. We learn from audience that Latinas are perceived as good maids, women from Middle Eastern backgrounds have it easier because they’re immigrants compared to African American women because the latter were brought here as slaves and a host of other eye openers.

   The five women actually had to put up with a lot of strain and groaners from the audience and Tyra. Won’t spoil the fun by revealing the best lines or exchanges here.

   Tyra then explores uses pairs of women of talk about intraracial racism with (a) two African Americans who have complexes with their own light and dark complexions; (b) two Puerto Rican sisters, one of whom disses the other for acting too “white” while the other all but proves her point by stating her Puerto Rican cultural pride mixed with a “preference for dating white guys”; (c) two “Muslims” (sic again) who disagree over clothing, with one who wants to wear the hijab and jilbab as a sign of modesty and the other… basically politely respecting her decision.

   Audience questions include senstivity raising exchange pointing out that an Muslim can be many shades, does not have to come from the Middle East, etc. Tyra apologizes.

   Cue the experts: Dr. Brenda Stevenson and Dr. Jeffrey Decker from UCLA (both are academically oriented towards intercultural studies) basically argued that every ethnic group that came to the US suffered racial discrmination, but agreed African Americans had it worse due to the circumstances under which they were brought here. Also float out the notion that just while race and science used to try and prove how different we were, science now proves were now so very much alike under the skin.

   Then the finale: Tyra joins the audience in an exercise, standing up in response to questions that prove that we all share things in common as people, with a purpose. They hold hands, raising them (in the air, even, no less), as she intones, that this is who we are, Americans, and this is beautiful, so take this message back to families, friends, pets, and communities.

   (Snarky person with whom I’m watching points out that since everyone is holding hands in the air, no one in audience is actually able to clap.)

   Show ends.

   Posted 11 Sep 2006 at 11:09 pm ¶

6. Meg wrote:

   i haven’t seen it but ppl being surprised/angered that an asian woman would claim racism is probably a good example of how ‘positive’ stereotypes of asians (such as being smart) are potentially just as damaging as negative stereotypes. It may be thought that “why should you care if ppl think all asians are smart - that’s not racist”.

   For anyone who’s seen it - how was the white woman dealt with? Was she just there for decoration? To say that she may be discriminated against by minorities (like negative stereotypes) oversimplifies the power issues within society, which then leads back to the oppression olympics which then leads us back to the MMW boards………..hmmmmm we seem to be in a bit of a circle

   Was there any mind paid to people of mixed race? and why do the native americans get dudded out of these conversations?

   Posted 12 Sep 2006 at 2:52 am ¶

7. Tariq Nelson wrote:

   Meg:

   On the “all Asians are smart” stereotype, an Asian that was a Roofer came by my office and a few of the employees were saying “how’d you get to be a Roofer??” (translation: You’re SUPPOSED to be a doctor or scientist, etc)

   He was nice and basically responded that he gets that all the time. I can only imagine that it must irk him sometimes.

   After he left, I had to take the opportunity to explain to the ones asking the questions that yes indeed, Asians do blue collar work too.

   Posted 12 Sep 2006 at 5:35 am ¶

8. Lyonside wrote:

   Tariq:

   *sigh* and you hit on 2 of my pet peeves at once - racism and… what’s a word for “white-collar-centrism”?

   I come from a mixed family (that is, blue collar, white collar, and something in between). My husband, a commercial driver, makes more than I do. Guaranteed that after all those loans, a good roofer is probably taking home more than the average doctor (at least for the first 10 years), and learning a skill that can’t be taken over by techs or computers to boot.

   Posted 12 Sep 2006 at 7:18 am ¶

9. site admin wrote:

   Wow Ikolko, thank you so much for posting that very effective synopsis of the episode! It’s much appreciated. I watched the show last night and plan on putting together an email with some of my thoughts to the show’s producers. There are some ways in which I need to give them props (this was a FAR more sophisticated/complex view on race than Oprah has ever done, for example) but the whole oppression olympics setup and the conclusion that yes, blacks have it worst, is highly problematic. I’ll post the email here on MMW after I’ve sent it out. –CVK

   Posted 12 Sep 2006 at 7:40 am ¶

10. Sandra wrote:

    Muslim is not a race, but neither is Hispanic. Jews and Native Americans are other groups that aren’t a race, but are targeted by racists.

    Posted 12 Sep 2006 at 6:25 pm ¶

11. S wrote:

    Can someone explain to me how “positive” stereotypes are hurtful? I thought about it after a discussion with some asian females (who actaully enjoy the stereotypes), and I read one of the posts above, and I still don’t get it. It works to their advantage, especially when they are with me, I am automatically the b!tch because I’m black, and they are automatically Trophy Angels because they are asian. I have seen them many times with their white boyfriends, and although they DO think asian women are more feminine, petite, and submissive, I have never “seen” or heard them disrespect my asian friends. They themselves say it gives them an advantage over all the other females, and they enjoy the rants the men give about white women and others.

    So, you can see that, after conversing with them, I STILL don’t understand what’s so bad about “positive” stereotypes. Is it because everyone “expects” the stereotype to be true? Like people “expect” all black men to be good at basketball? Someone please explain what asian women (in the US) have to complain about. I am just not getting it. Thanks!

    Posted 13 Sep 2006 at 8:59 am ¶

12. Lyonside wrote:

    Positive stereotype:
    All or most Asians (usually limited to Pacific Asians and sometimes South Asians from India) are smart/good at math/good students.

    Negative result:
    An Asian student may be accused of being lazy or a slacker when they really have a learning disability or a problem w/ math.

    A teacher may be biased TOWARDS one set of students, giving them the benefit of the doubt, over other students.

    A parent or other person of authority may have heightened expectations about a kid based on ethnicity, leading to increased pressure on the child, and if the child “fails,” self-esteem issues.

    An adult may feel pressured in the workplace to be the one w/ the solution or be regulated to only certain roles in the company (accounting, or asssitant, rather than people-person leader) based on ethnicity.

    How is ANY of that really a positive thing?

    As for the Asian female stereotypes:

    I’m going out on a limb and going to say that none of the Asian women that you know who LIKE the stereotypes are over 30 and/or married. What works when you’re 22 and a party girl looking for guys in a nightclub is LOADS different from attitudes/prejudice you may realize as you mature. According to your list of stereotypes, God HELP the woman who’s built more like Margaret Cho than Lucy Liu, who doesn’t need a man for approval, who is not promiscuous, who is not self-effacing and is bold in her opinions (wow… I just described most of the Asian women I know).

    Your stereotype combines both sexism and racism… potent stuff.. and far from positive.

    Posted 13 Sep 2006 at 1:39 pm ¶

13. IkoIko wrote:

    No problem on the recap (sorry for the typos– there was much grimacing going on at the time). My personal picks:

    Best composed throughout this whole weird show: (tie) “Latina” and “African-American” participants from “oppression olympics”

    Most stomach churning moment: “White Woman” participant breaking down in tears from the strain of the whole show, especially after (a) recounting how her black roommates and their friends ganged up on her simply for being “white”, and (b) the snarky comments some members of the audience had flung at her throughout the taping, and (c) the focus group.

    Least necessary conflict: “Middle Eastern” panelist standing her ground against antagonistic “African American” audience member refusing to hear about how bad Middle Easterners claim discrimination is for them.

    Complaint With “the intra-racial pairs” piece: Would have been better to have a consistent dynamic– maybe “sisters” or “cousins?– with an actual conflicting point of view regarding their race or ethnicity, going beyond mere skin tone, and looking for women who were maybe a little more…hmm, secure and interesting in their intransigence?

    Biggest gripe with “the experiment” overall: Many, if not most, of the “snap perceptions” were made based upon physical appearance tied to clothing.

    All the women were beautiful to be sure, but they were weighed according to whose “objective” standard– their own “natural, cultural look” or that of the “common” focus group before which they were appearing?

    They were nowhere near similar to one another in height/weight, so any one of them would have been perceived as physically different from the other at the outset.

    If the focus group was not as diverse as they were (and it wasn’t) it throws off the balance of the questions they would be asked (and it did).

    The five women were therefore either dowded down or thugged up and put into “everyday urban wear”. This had the effect of making them more accessible or attractive to some people than they might have been otherwise, based upon things like class.

    When you see them on stage after the experiment, they are definitely glammed up again, and in a more “exotic” look to us.

    But it’s that very look that’s actually natural to who they are. So wouldn’t have skewed the experiment results if they were simply being themselves, and appeared they way the group wanted them to appear?

    This was a flawed experiment, well-intentioned, but messed up from the beginning.

    Posted 13 Sep 2006 at 9:40 pm ¶

14. Meg wrote:

    S: ditto with Lyonside, and to add my 2 cents
    To put it simply any stereotype, “positive” or otherwise, is bad cos it implies that someone is the same as someone else for no other reason than their physical appearance.

    It also excludes other people who don’t conform to that - take mixed race people who identify with different ethnicities but are not allowed to “claim” one or the other because of how they look/act.

    Since when is a commment/attitude that puts someone else down a compliment “hey babe you’re great cos you don’t talk and have opinions like those other girls” excuse me while i puke. I’d be concerned if guys spoke to me only cos they had a general dislike of anyone who didn’t have
    dark hair/eyes

    Posted 14 Sep 2006 at 3:38 am ¶

15. S wrote:

    Got it. Thanks, LS, and yes, they are slightly under thirty, not party girls, they just like what they think is positive attention, even if it’s at the expense of putting someone else down.

    Meg, I see your point, now that it is put that way. Unfortunately, I have lost many friends this way. Friends who dated outside their race and enjoyed the stereotypes and negative things their men had to say about black women, which included me, their longtime friend. These were the reasons that these men approached these women in the first place and it caused their heads to swell up and crowd our relationship. I had to shut it down. I did feel sorry for them, though, because this particular crowd had already given them the “hoe” stereotype before they’d ever met. Was this stereotype mentioned in the Op Olympics? I didn’t see the episode.

    Posted 14 Sep 2006 at 9:42 am ¶

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