Cultural appropriation goes both ways
CVK
It’s definitely worth checking out blogger TheThink’s analysis on the issue of “racial ownership.” He starts his post by saying that it bothers him when Asian-Americans sometimes go overboard in making fun of “Westerners” who get tattoos of Asian characters with no idea what they actually mean. Asians are quick to mock people who appropriate Asian culture but they seem less inclined to mock members of their own who appropriate other types of culture, like hip hop, for example.
I think TheThink is onto something. This phenomenon is a sign of how we’re trained to be attuned only to our own oppression/exploitation, and to be bored or indifferent to the oppression/exploitation of other ethnic groups. We need to recognize how hypocritical it is to scream about a phenomenon when it happens to us, but to remain silent when the exact same thing happens to another group. If you don’t care about other people’s causes, how can you expect them to care about yours???
So, before you find it super neat to get ultra-ethnocentric on someone of another race, take some time to think about the situation from the other side. Not everything is as it seems. Yes, there are racist people in the world who will tattoo the Chinese phrase for “Peace & Understanding” on their back and call Asian men “Chinamen” at the same time. But, there are also people who will stock their 100-disc CD changer exclusively with hip-hop CDs while at the same time crossing the street at night to avoid walking too close to “dangerous niggers”. There’s a duality here that exists, which we must never forgot. For every thesis, there is an anti-thesis.
Your thesis: a dumb Western idiot, almost always butchers Chinese, etc. and puts it on his body in the quest for being exotic.
The antithesis: a dumb Eastern idiot thinks that saying the words “nigga” and “bitch” while wearing a throwback will turn you into a hot hip-hop artist.
Luke wrote:
For men and young boys, a lot of this is this bad-boy posing to echo the bad-boy posing of someone else and use of the physicaly body to attain some idealized notion of masculinity. 50 Cent for example is a good way to look at it in terms of black men and young boys. If you’re structurally oppressed by dominant society and not given any “white” stereotypical source of masculinity in positions of power, education, and political influence (or even media exposure), then the alternative is to use intimidation and tough guy posing to get…masculine. Look at G-Unit’s video “Poppin’ them thangs.” The entire video storyline is that he’s a gang-lord who kills other gang-lords. some critics have said that urban black males get this from the italian mob boss ganster films. which in turn white, asian, and latino men then imitate to echo black men. :/
Posted 06 Mar 2006 at 5:52 pm ¶
Merq wrote:
Hmm… I’m black, and I still laugh at folks who Chinese script tattoos on them without a full understanding of their significance (and by the way, significance != translation).
I’ve got a relative who has a Chinese script tattoo on his arm, and he will never live it down as long as my friends and I are alive.
Posted 06 Mar 2006 at 6:42 pm ¶
Anonymous Donor wrote:
I think you’re suffering from folk Marxism inasmuch as you think of all of that sort of things counts as an oppressor/oppressee relationship; a much better idea is to laugh at Engrish and Hanzi Smatter.
Posted 06 Mar 2006 at 10:54 pm ¶
Anonymous Donor wrote:
None of my above comment is meant to imply that trans-Pacific silliness is the only type around; witness Brian Ingerson’s legal name-change to the oh-so-European (on account of the dieresis) Ingy döt Net.
Posted 06 Mar 2006 at 11:06 pm ¶
tmk wrote:
TheThink provides a good point. As an individual who goes back and forth the US and East Asia all the time, I see these contradictions… Why not get the Chinese-tattooed Orientalist, and the hip-hop obsessed Occidentalist (?) to talk to each other and figure out whats up?
It’s interesting that with cultures being mixed through globalism media and all that wonderful fast-paced infotec, it’s hard to define “authenticity.” I’ve recently been looking at Gwen Stefani and the Harajuku Girls and the appropriation of Tokyo-pop. When we look at these forms of appropriation, I think its important to consider WHY we don’t think its appropriate- because of the lack of understanding? For taking the visual elements at face value? So when we see an Asian dude wearing hip hop gear should we automatically assume he is an appropriator? Or are we confused because he doesn’t live up to what we want to see him as: the Asian guy with “Asian” gear…
I don’t know.. I’m confused…
Posted 06 Mar 2006 at 11:44 pm ¶
mr guy wrote:
interesting, make you woder.Does someone like say jin (the asian rap guy) guilty of appropiation or not?And how far does it go?Luke Aldo brings up a good point at the end of his comment.
Posted 07 Mar 2006 at 8:37 am ¶
mr guy wrote:
As for the picture above, what do i think when I see it?People into hiphop.Not something I’m into as a black man myself but to each his (or her) own.
Posted 07 Mar 2006 at 8:45 am ¶
CVK wrote:
“Does someone like say jin (the asian rap guy) guilty of appropiation or not?And how far does it go?”
mr guy - I’d encourage you to read TheThink’s original post. It’s very long and detailed, and I was only able to paste a few excerpts here. He doesn’t blast all non-blacks who appropriate elements of hip hop culture. He’s really questioning the definition of authenticity and ownership.
For example, if you as an Asian-American can’t read or write your language of origin, do you have the right to mock non-Asians who get tattoos that they can’t read just on the basis of your ethnic heritage?
Similarly, if you’re a black person couldn’t care less about hip hop, do you have the right to mock non-black hip hop fans who lack any understanding about the true origins of hip hop? Simply because you’re black?
Posted 07 Mar 2006 at 10:15 am ¶
Bertrum says wrote:
I think Luke’s analysis is a bit flawed because much of hip-hop’s tough guy posturing is lifted from white italian mafiaoso stereotypes. I cringed a little at the statement regarding “white” sources of masculinity because it appears (and I will fully admit that I could be making an incorrect inference) to imply that stereotypical white masculinity is viewed as wholesome and good, and black masculine role models are all neagtive. There are plenty examples of black males from Malcolm X, MLK, Michael Jordan, Denzel numerous athletes, etc who represent a non-thug ideal of black masculinty. I don’t think the thug-chic is as simple as black/white or opressed/oppressor.
Posted 07 Mar 2006 at 11:53 am ¶
P.Moore wrote:
Philip (TheThink) Here,
Wow, loving the discussion that’s come out of this folks. I’m not going to get too much into points that I’ve already laid out in my original post, but I will say that the original point I was trying to make was that we all create inaccurate caricatures of other cultures in our minds, whether we want to admit it or not. Hell, I’m biracial (Black/White) and I STILL can’t help but create generalizations sometimes. It’s human nature, whether you own up to it or not.
With the above said, I think that we are so quick to jump on “the other” for attempting to take part (note: the definition of “take part” can become a sticky one here, one which I’ll not get into) in our culture. I’ve spent a good deal of time in Viet Nam the last two years, and I see the exact same problem that I see here: the raging fetish. In District 1 of Ho Chi Minh City, for example, you’ll find more White faces on store walls than Asian faces. Does anyone besides me find this strange? Asians (that is, the Vietnamese specifically in this case) hold fetishes for Westernisms just as much as we Westerners like to create a sense of what’s “exotic” by diluting and filtering cultures from abroad. We take what we want from Asian culture (i.e. the “cool” Asian tattoos and the anime craze) and trash what we don’t want (i.e. true understanding of the Asian psyche [if there even is one], culture, language, and history). We as a people frankly don’t give a damn about the history of other cultures. We merely care about how a culture other than our own acts to either compliment, or detract from our culture. We view “the other” as appendages to our lives, which is, say it with me, WRONG.
On Jin: I think Jin is an amazing exception to the rule. If you listen to some of his newer (more independent) music [check out the The Emcee’s Properganda], you’ll note that he’s a young talent very much into hip-hop. He’s trashed people in one-on-one battles, and in fact got his start on 106 & Park, freestyling and defeating 7 Black men in a row. I think he trancends race in that respect, and it was in fact the Black men in the battles who brought up his Chineseness, not him (listen to some of the “you eat dog” lines). I see Jin as Hip Hop, not a fake. And if you need more proof of that, you should check out his upcoming film “No Sleep Till Shanghai”, due out in March I believe. I’ve yet to see it but the trailer looks VERY promising.
All I was saying was that I get very sick and tired of Asian Americans who do what I described: judge other cultures when their respective own do the same thing. I’m NOT saying other races don’t do the same thing, I’m really not, we all do it. But, this is something that’s not been touched on, which I felt I needed to discuss. I’ve got a very deep connection with Asia and the Asian-American community. For fear of sounding ridiculous, I love “you guys”. I was practically brought up around Asians since the age of 14. It’s not a game of pointing fingers I want to start. It’s just…a bit of fact checking, and being real about the situation.
P.Moore
(TheThink)
Posted 07 Mar 2006 at 1:54 pm ¶
Merq wrote:
—”it was in fact the Black men in the battles who brought up his Chineseness, not him”—
Ok, I was with you right until that point. While I can’t really speak for his pre-album stuff (not a big BET fan), I find I must remind you of just how grossly he turned his “Chineseness” into a gimmick on his album. I don’t have any quotes for you right now, but dude, it got really sad after a while.
Posted 07 Mar 2006 at 8:48 pm ¶
mr guy wrote:
mr guy - I’d encourage you to read TheThink’s original post. It’s very long and detailed, and I was only able to paste a few excerpts here. He doesn’t blast all non-blacks who appropriate elements of hip hop culture. He’s really questioning the definition of authenticity and ownership.”
CVK and P.Moore:
Yeah, I read the think’s entire post before I made my comment here and I got what he was saying.I never said he was blasting nonblacks who “appropriate” hiphop culture.I was just asking those questions.
Posted 08 Mar 2006 at 12:38 am ¶
P.Moore wrote:
I agree with you that he played up his Chineseness in his debut album, which is precisely why I brought up his latest, independent venture. You have to keep in mind that Jin was under a very big record label (i.e. powerful, big dollar so-and-so’s) who controlled a lot of the creative process that went into Jin writing and what tracks were put on his record. In his early freestyles, he was a nobody, going against 7 nobodies, and THEY brought up his Chineseness, he didn’t bring up them being Black.
And just because Jin brings up his Chineseness doesn’t mean that those freestylers had to bring up his Chinesenss for a “diss”. That would be like Jin saying “you eat Watermelon” for a hot freestyle. But don’t get it twisted, listen to a lot of freestyle battles and you’ll hear people going on and on about Jin being Chinese, when Jin rips them on his own accord. I’m not Stanning the guy I’m just SAYING, man!
But listen to The Emcees Properganda, it’s a lot better, and alot more under his control…
Posted 08 Mar 2006 at 1:03 am ¶
Merq wrote:
I definitely agree that people seem to have no problem throwing racial/cultural “jokes” into the mix when their main goal is to win a freestyle. kinda pathetic.
Posted 08 Mar 2006 at 10:32 am ¶
Luke wrote:
“I think Luke’s analysis is a bit flawed because much of hip-hop’s tough guy posturing is lifted from white italian mafiaoso stereotypes.” <—your comment
“The entire video storyline is that he’s a gang-lord who kills other gang-lords. some critics have said that urban black males get this from the italian mob boss ganster films. ” <—-my comment
….
Posted 09 Mar 2006 at 12:00 am ¶
Ramen wrote:
I get very sick and tired of Asian Americans who do what I described: judge other cultures when their respective own do the same thing
It’s usually wannabe-activist bananas who can’t even read those characters themselves that get the most heartburn with others getting Chinese tatts. I personally never had a huge problem with it as long as they know what it means and have some base respect for the people/culture. Just like if I get a cross-cultural tattoo - I’d do the same.
Of course, they do say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery…so at some level you also have to take appropriation as a compliment.
If anything, ignorance to cultural origins only makes YOU look stupid.
For example, how many hip-hoppers know that saggy pants came from byches in prison keeping their pants hangin’ low so their dom’s could bufu them at will? And yet out in the free world they think it’s “cool?” LMAO…
Posted 13 Mar 2006 at 1:59 pm ¶
K-Pow wrote:
Ramen I think you’re wrong about the baggy pants thing. From what I understand the baggy pants style was the result of young boys wearing the oversized clothing of their older brothers while the older brothers were incarcerated. In other words the clothes were hand-me-down.
Posted 13 Mar 2006 at 3:02 pm ¶