Former Miss Universe faces race problem
PC (a returning MMW contributor!)
Here’s an interesting piece on Brook Lee, former Miss Universe 1997, recently in Asianweek. She’s first ever Miss Hawaii-USA to win this crown. What’s interesting in this article is that she talks about not compromising her mixed Asian-white identity by refusing to pass herself off as Hispanic, as been suggested to her, in order to audition for more roles in Hollyweird. Ironically, Hollywood considers that she does not look Asian enough, and obviously not white enough as well! (Yeah, and David Carridine really looks Asian for that Kung Fu TV series). She also has some interesting things to say about fellow Hapa actor Jennifer Tilly and everybody’s favourite kick-ass Asian Lady, Lucy Liu!
Leigh-Anne wrote:
I read the article and was particularly interested in the comment Ms Lee made about being called “Oriental”. I’ve heard that in the States this isn’t a nice thing to say to someone - in South Africa, Oriental is perfectly correct - and in fact preferable to Asian (Asian meaning someone who’s from India or Pakistan.) Well we all know what SA is like regarding race relations: In SA it’s considered 100% correct to call someone of mixed race “Coloured”. So, is it wrong/offensive to call someone “Oriental”?
Posted 02 Mar 2006 at 5:16 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:
It is in that “Oriental” has in the past been used as a blanket term for everything from food to rugs to people. It also lumps everyone together in a way that saying a nationality (Japanese, Taiwanese, Vietnamese) or even Pacific Asian does not.
“Orient” also means “East” (as Occidental means West). The implication is that when one is talking about something related from the “Orient” is that the speaker is from the West (i.e. the US or Europe). It implies an “us vs. them” mentality.
Posted 02 Mar 2006 at 9:25 am ¶
justin wrote:
I have noticed afew incidences where Americans have grouped Polynesians and Asians together, beyond Hawaii. Is that common or is it just because of Hawaii? (and how are pacific islanders percieved in America???)
Posted 02 Mar 2006 at 10:30 am ¶
justin wrote:
I think the Occident and the Orient refers to divisions coming out of the Roman empire, hence the rug thing. it really has nothing to do with eastern and western hemispheres or any direction, except ingrained colonialism.
Posted 02 Mar 2006 at 10:53 am ¶
John wrote:
In the late 80’s/early 90’s, Asian Americans brought this issue to the table. THINGS are “oriental” (rugs, food); PEOPLE are Asian.
Seems simple & logical.
People who are indigenous to the west are not called “Occidentals”, right?
There are also negative exotic connotations associated with “oriental” (when describing Asian people).
I remember being a kid correcting adults on this- it was pretty comical.
Some people thought this was too much info to take in/be bothered with…
that it was nothing more than left-wing politics… that it would never be accepted by mainstream America…
Posted 02 Mar 2006 at 11:34 am ¶
Marsha wrote:
>I read the article and was particularly interested in the comment Ms Lee >made about being called “Oriental”. I’ve heard that in the States this isn’t >a nice thing to say to someone - in South Africa, Oriental is perfectly >correct - and in fact preferable to Asian (Asian meaning someone who’s >from India or Pakistan.) Well we all know what SA is like regarding race >relations: In SA it’s considered 100% correct to call someone of mixed >race “Coloured”. So, is it wrong/offensive to call someone “Oriental”?
I think the matter is relative. It might be OK to call someone “Oriental” in South Africa, but I can tell you that it would most certainly offend someone in the United States. “Oriental” and “Colored” are pretty dated terms in the United States. “Colored” most certainly is a pejorative term because of its relation to the pre-civil rights era. Also, I’m wondering if it preferable to call someone “Oriental” in South Africa rather than “Asian” (which refers to Indians and Pakistanis) because the British Colonialists had such a blatant disrespect for Indians and Pakistanis (seeing that they used to call Indians n*ggers). It sounds like a racial hierarchy to me..
Posted 02 Mar 2006 at 5:25 pm ¶
Anonymous wrote:
“Halle Berry saying no to [Black Entertainment Television].”
Halle is mixed, so comparing Lucy Lui to her contradicts Lee’s own logic. And it also brings into question Lee’s own understanding of race since it seems she’s automatically categorizing a half black person as full black.
Posted 02 Mar 2006 at 5:35 pm ¶
Kaonashi wrote:
She did it to Jennifer Tilly as well.
Apparently in Lee’s eyes you are only supposed to take roles that the character is the race that you predominately look like. Unless it’s another race altogether, of course. Because that would be WRONG in Ms Lee’s eyes.
I paticularly found her ripping of Lucy Liu uncalled or and distasteful. Her comments really pissed me off because she’s basically doing to these other stars (Liu in paticular) what she feels other people are doing to her. So what Lucy Liu takes on roles that aren’t necessarily Asian-specific. Since WHEN was that a bad thing? Hell, even Whoopie Goldberg has done roles that weren’t necessarily written for a Black woman. Furthermore in Kill Bill Liu actually plays a biracial individual, which is what she is! Lee needs to think before she opens her mouth.
Posted 02 Mar 2006 at 7:20 pm ¶
Anonymous wrote:
“… Lucy Liu takes on roles that aren’t necessarily Asian-specific. Since WHEN was that a bad thing?”
-She wasn’t “ripping” Liu for taking non-Asian ROLES.
She questioned why Liu avoided Asian-specific PRESS.
Posted 02 Mar 2006 at 11:58 pm ¶
Nina wrote:
I agree with Anonymous that Brook Lee is contradicting her own logic by unfavorably comparing Chinese Lucy Liu to Biracial Halle Berry — whom she categorized as fully black for her own purposes.
If she were a real actor, she would welcome the chance to be able to play anything. You mean to tell me if she were offered the role of a Latina scientist in an action movie that doesn’t deal with race — she would turn it down????? Funny, Vanessa Williams didn’t have a problem playing a Latina in Shaft and Latinas play white all of the time if they look white.
And I guess Amerie would not do Asian press — her primary audience is black — she ain’t exactly Beyonce famous.
Anyway, you’ll never believe this, but I’ve actually met Brook Lee. It was at a party for the Grammys in NYC. She was Miss USA at the time (a few months before winning Miss Universe.)
I am black (not mixed) and she was surprised that I knew her name. She was actually wearing her crown and sash, so it was hard for anyone to miss that she was Miss USA. And yes, she looked rather conspicuous and out of place at a party in Manhattan in a crown and sash.
I bring that up to say pictures are one thing, but in person, she does not look “Asian”. She looks like what she is — a multi-racial person. If she told me that night that she was Pakistani or Samoan, I would have believed her. She is one of those people that could be anything — even an Amerie type with a Korean mom and a black dad. Brook going for Asian-only roles is about as realistic as Halle Berry going for White-only roles (playing a white character - not one that was changed from white to black)
I think some of the (racial) ignorance she must have encountered as Miss USA really shook her into identifying only as Asian.
And even though she tries to make her look bad, I think that Joan Chen was trying to do her a favor with the advice she gave her. I think she really needs to open her eyes and get over herself.
Posted 03 Mar 2006 at 12:57 am ¶
calm down wrote:
^ She was obviously upset and emotional during this interview.
She never said anything about Asians ONLY playing Asians (Lucy L). She was talking about Lucy L. (known for her Uncle Tom-stance when playing Asians, btw) limiting access to Asian American magazines/ interviews. (example: that’s like Halle B. saying “no” to BET)
Obviously Halle B. is not JUST black, but many in the African American community identify Halle as black.
^ Nina, there are MANY types of Asian looks, not just the stereotypical looks that are favored by waspy casting agents.
Posted 03 Mar 2006 at 10:56 am ¶
How Lame! wrote:
I hear non-white actors all the time gush over the fact that they were given the opportunity to play a role that was not based on their race, so I don’t understand why Lee has a problem with playing characters that are not of her same ethnic background. In my opinion she’s making things too complicated and being to technical when it comes to race. She apparently is not that talented (or ambitious) otherwise she would take good roles period, regardless of the ethnic background of the character. That’s what good, talented actors do. They like to challenge themselves and prove their ability to adapt and master a given role. After all, a movie isn’t about the actor but about the character(s) and plot lines. Lee is a little to ridgid in my humble opinion. Like I said, she obviously isn’t very talented (or beautiful) because until now,I never heard of her and will quickly forget her.
Posted 03 Mar 2006 at 2:53 pm ¶
mr guy wrote:
Since when was Lucy L an uncle Tom?That term get thrown around so easily these days.Can anyone back this up?
“And I guess Amerie would not do Asian press – her primary audience is black – she ain’t exactly Beyonce famous.”
I think that even if she identified more asian then black, most asians would only see her as black.She may not be asian enough for many.(and for a really small group of black, people she’s not black enough either)
Posted 03 Mar 2006 at 8:55 pm ¶
Merq wrote:
—”so I don’t understand why Lee has a problem with playing characters that are not of her same ethnic background.”—
I think you also have to consider the fact that someone like Jennifer Lopez got attacked on this front for seemingly “choosing” to play only Italian roles.
I definitely agree that you should take challenging roles if they aren’t designed for someone your race, but a line has to be drawn when they try to shape your image as less racially “off-putting.” I think I remember Mariah Carey saying something about how Sony subtly made statements like “would it be so bad if they thought you were, say, Italian?”
So in that case, my friend, I think there’s an argument to be made for carefully considering these things.
Posted 03 Mar 2006 at 11:51 pm ¶
John wrote:
“Since when was Lucy L an Uncle Tom?”
Really don’t want to go into it but…
NYPD Blue episode (passive foreign baby-sitter/baby shaker), Flypaper (actually greets people with “Herro”), Ally McBeal (dragon lady), Payback (woman mafia leader=good, but also a dominatrix=bad)…
But I really can’t blame Asian actors for taking these jobs… because of, you know, food & shelter issues.
Anna May Wong played the same stereotypes and she was a great Asian American actress. At least Lucy doesn’t have to off herself at the end of her movies like Anna May… Just wish there’d more progress than that since the 1920’s and 30’s.
PS- I was shocked to hear that Lucy Liu was producing a Charlie Chan remake?!! With “Charlie Chan”, she has the perfect opportunity to make a powerful statement. It’ll be interesting to see if she makes up for her past sins or…
Posted 04 Mar 2006 at 12:14 am ¶
How Lame! wrote:
Merq, yes I see your point. Taking a role in order to change your image because of self-hetared or whatever is always bad. Point well taken.
Posted 04 Mar 2006 at 3:58 pm ¶
How Lame! wrote:
…however I still see the reasons Lee gives for turning down roles as lame.
Posted 04 Mar 2006 at 3:59 pm ¶
Nina wrote:
Calm down: ^ She was obviously upset and emotional during this interview.
She never said anything about Asians ONLY playing Asians (Lucy L).
Nina: If you read the article, she specifically stated that she turns down roles if it is not an Asian role. She is responsible for her state of mind, so it doesn’t matter if she was “upset and emotional” during the interview. She has to take responsibility for what what she says like anyone else.
Calm down: Obviously Halle B. is not JUST black, but many in the African American community identify Halle as black.
Nina: Yeah, no kidding. I am black and I know that Halle is not “just” black. It is Halle herself — and she has said this many times — who has elected to identify herself as solely black.
And by the way, it is not “obvious” that she is “just black”. There are many black people with her complexion and similar features who have two black parents (and grandparents for that matter).
A person’s race is not always “obvious,” that is your judgment.
Calm down: ^ Nina, there are MANY types of Asian looks, not just the stereotypical looks that are favored by waspy casting agents.
Nina: No kidding???? Is that right???? You mean ALL Asians don’t look like Lucy Liu or Ziyi Zhang? Thanks for the info! *SMH*
Of course there are MANY types of Asian looks, just like there are many tyypes of “black” looks, “Latina” looks, etc. Don’t patronize me.
Posted 06 Mar 2006 at 12:05 pm ¶
Calm down wrote:
Nina,
“She never said anything about Asians ONLY playing Asians (Lucy L).”
Nina: “If you read the article, she specifically said that she turns down roles if it is not an Asian role.”
–I read the article, Nina. But if you read my comment, I was addressing someone’s assertion that Brook criticized LUCY LIU for not taking Asian roles.
“Obviously Halle B is not just black, but many… identify Halle as black.”
Nina: “No kidding…” “And by the way, it is not obvious…”
–Nina, you suggested that Brook categorized Halle B as fully black for her own pruposes. I was merely addressing that Halle, and many in the black community, identify her as black. And if you read my comments, I never said anything about one’s race being obvious. I said OBVIOUSLY you’re right that Halle is biracial.
“… there are MANY types of Asian looks…”
Nina: “No kidding???? Is that right???? You mean ALL Asians don’t look like Lucy Liu or Ziyi Zhang? Thanks for the info! *SMH*”
–Nina, you are the one who said Brook does not look Asian to you and that going for Asian roles is not a realistic goal for her. YOU said that.
There are many Asian American actors (who are not mixed race) who cannot get Asian-specific roles because they are told that they don’t look stereotypically “Asian” enough. I was not patronizing you before, but I could patronize you now.
Posted 06 Mar 2006 at 2:24 pm ¶
Merq wrote:
rrREOWwww.
HAHAH
Posted 06 Mar 2006 at 10:11 pm ¶
Merq wrote:
by the way, Calm Down:
not to get into this, or anything, but you must tell me where this “Black Community” I hear of so often holds its meetings.
I always feel really left out when I hear how The Black Community has apparently voted to call Halle “just black,” or not to support Queen Latifah’s latest film. They never include me in anything!
Posted 06 Mar 2006 at 10:16 pm ¶
Nina wrote:
LOL Merq!
I keep missing the meetings too! I don’t get memos or anything!!
I mean, are we holding secret barbecues every other weekend or something? Where! Shoot, I like barbecue! LOL!!!
Posted 07 Mar 2006 at 2:35 am ¶
Nina wrote:
Calm Down: –Nina, you are the one who said Brook does not look Asian to you and that going for Asian roles is not a realistic goal for her. YOU said that.
There are many Asian American actors (who are not mixed race) who cannot get Asian-specific roles because they are told that they don’t look stereotypically “Asian” enough. I was not patronizing you before, but I could patronize you now.
Nina: I’m too exhausted to go into anyting else (it’s 2:30 am) but I will say that when I stated that Brook doesn’t look Asian to me, I meant in the way most Americans read “Asian”. And casting directors, for better and (mostly) worse, read “Asian” as solely Chinese, Korean, etc.
I know there are many different “Asian” looks but, looking right at her, she didn’t appear to have one of the many different “Asian” looks to my eyes.
Posted 07 Mar 2006 at 2:39 am ¶
Calm down wrote:
Nina, you keep repeating your statement and you don’t seem to understand what I’m saying (or what you’re saying). I understand that most Americans have a certain image of Asians/East Asians. I guess there are people who still do not know that East Asians can have rounder eyes, tanner skin, taller height, etc. And it’s kind of racist for people (like casting agents) to say they can’t represent themselves in film because it’s not familiar to their eyes.
“secret barbecues… LOL!!!”
– Was that offensive, because that was not my intent.
Posted 07 Mar 2006 at 12:05 pm ¶
Nina wrote:
Calm down: Nina, you keep repeating your statement and you don’t seem to understand what I’m saying (or what you’re saying). I understand that most Americans have a certain image of Asians/East Asians. I guess there are people who still do not know that East Asians can have rounder eyes, tanner skin, taller height, etc. And it’s kind of racist for people (like casting agents) to say they can’t represent themselves in film because it’s not familiar to their eyes.
I agree that it is racist for people and casting directors to shove mixed people into one box — but you have to start somewhere. She could write and direct her own film like the woman (Alison something..) that wrote “Mixing Nia”.
In the 1930s, the actress Fredi Washington, a lightskinned, green-eyed black woman, did not “read black” on camera. She had her one great role in the original “Imitation of Life” as Pecola, and when her film career waned, she worked tirelessly with civil rights organizations to make things better.
Brook Lee has a different battle. She can get a role at least. Perhaps she can play some roles outside of her actual heritage to gain footing (ala J. Lopez playing Italian, Jessica Alba playing a black/white mix when she is not).
Once she gains footing (i.e. makes some money) she can write and/or direct her own work.
Calm Down: “secret barbecues… LOL!!!”
– Was that offensive, because that was not my intent.
Nina: Okay, I’ll take that. I’ll just point out that many black people (like myself) always find it amusing when people (including other black people) make certain statements about “the black community” and “what black people think” as if every single black person attended a meeting and decided on it. You know, the same meeting where we pick our official Black Leader (LOL). It’s an old joke. I don’t, and I don’t think Merq thinks that you were purposely being offensive.
Posted 07 Mar 2006 at 6:55 pm ¶