Black women and interracial relationships
CVK
The Washington Post did a surprisingly good article about black women in interracial relationships, linked of course to this weekend’s release of the romantic comedy Something New. Props to the writer for actually going there and discussing the painful historical legacy of interracial relationships in this country:
Yes, folks of all colors have been mixing and matching since the beginning of time. After all, fully 70 to 90 percent of African Americans are estimated to be of mixed race, according to a widely quoted statistic. But much of the history of race-mixing is filled with danger and ugly images, such as lynchings just for the perception of untoward interest in a white woman; sexual exploitation and rape of black women working as domestics in white homes at the hands of their slavemasters and, later, employers.
That was the reality, but on the big screen, black women from Sapphire to Beaulah were Aunt Jemimaed, neutered, erased. Or they were crazy sluts like Carmen Jones. Or, in the case of “Pinky,” “Showboat” and “Imitation of Life,” if they were deemed beautiful, “tragic mulattoes” cast as the love interest of a white man, white actresses were cast in these roles more often than not.
The writer attended an advance screening of the film at Howard University. Many black women in the audience cheered when Sanaa Lathan and Simon Baker’s characters finally get together. One Howard senior explains:
Given the “reality of black women,” Aidoo says, where suitable African American suitors appear to be in short supply, watching a character in a movie finding love outside the racial box was heartening.
After all, the statistics are grim: The filmmakers refer to the statistic that 42.4 percent of African American women are not married and the higher their socioeconomic level the less likely they are to wed. Only 5 percent of black women marry outside their race. (”Something New” writer Kriss Turner originally named her movie “42.4.”)
Anyway, Jen and I plan on seeing this flick so we’ll be sure to give you our thoughts! :)
Tanisha Jones wrote:
What’s good for the gander, is good for the goose, no?
42.4% unmarried - and 2/3 of those WITH CHILD? Even the best and brightest like Oprah, Halle, Janet, Mary J, Alicia Keys, Mariah, etc can’t find a decent FATHER to have families with…
Maybe the grass IS greener? Maybe we need to raise that 5%? Ladies?
Posted 30 Jan 2006 at 1:49 pm ¶
April wrote:
I can’t wait to see this flick!
Posted 30 Jan 2006 at 2:00 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:
Remember that those stats seem to lump together single moms (teen, adult, whatever the situation), divorced women, and widows… not to mention the assumption that all those women are looking for a male partner.
I would like to know the stats of single no-child black women and interracial dating/marriage, vs. those w/ kids, if there is a substantial difference. I can imagine different situations: a woman w/ kids may be looking beyond the expected, because she’s also looking for a co-parent as well as a partner. That said, there could also be more expectations on the woman (real or projected) to NOT go for an unconventional mate in case of any perceived harm to the kids.
It’s impossible to discuss any of this w/out stereotypes and generalizations…
Posted 30 Jan 2006 at 2:39 pm ¶
Bertrum says wrote:
Well–As a black man, I have no problem with this movie or with black women dating interracially. But I do have a problem with he grass is greener mentality. Lets not use Oprah’s choice not to marry Stedman, or Halle’s poor choice in mates as Exhibit A that black men aren’t suitable mates or fathers–as your post implies.
Not to mention the innaccuracies in your post (Mary J. is married to a Black man whom she credits with helping her overcome some of her emotional baggage–whether or not she has children with him has yet to be seen, and Mariah married and then divorced a White man whom she credits with causing a lot of her emotional baggage.)
Posted 30 Jan 2006 at 3:01 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:
Bertrum - I tend to agree… baggage is baggage.
I don’t think “celebrities” make great examples anyway. The choices and paths they often take on the way to celebrity-dom seem ot bring/cause/be caused by baggage, regardless of ethnicity.
Also, once they get there, a lot of them seem to exist in a social “bubble.” I doubt the daily lives of a celebrity IR couple are going to accurately reflect a real interracial relationship in the US anyway.
Posted 30 Jan 2006 at 3:14 pm ¶
Bertrum says wrote:
I totally agree Lyonside—but even taking her celebrity examples at face value–they didn’t support her post. Mary J, Mariah, Oprah etc are not “victims” of the “there’s not enough good blackmen syndrome” as Ms. Jones post implied.
Based on what I’ve seen of the movie in previews, this film is not even about that–because Blair Underwood plays an eligible “good/decent” black man that pursues Sanaa’s character. So it appears that her choice of the white guy is based on who she really loves versus a lack of choice caused by the so called, much hyped “marriagable black male shortage”
Posted 30 Jan 2006 at 4:01 pm ¶
Reel Man wrote:
I agree with Bertrum, my brotha.
Who is the bigger fool - the fool, or she who chooses to be with the fool?
There are plenty of nice guys in this world, including nice Black men.
HOWEVER, post-feminist women in particular tend to prefer “bad boys” moreso than ever. Black women these days are particularly known for this - preferring ruffnecks to white-collars.
Well, you reap what you sow…
Just ask Shar, single mom of 4 and Britney, soon-to-be-single mom of 1. Shar & Brit -5, Kevin + 2. Look, you can’t turn a ho into a housewife - and you can’t turn a dud into a dad, either.
So from a male POV, the Darwinian survival strategy of these bad boys should serve as an effective role model for all men left in America. You can spread your seed, without having to water the trees! Send your kids a B-day card every 5 years, and they’ll be so desperate for your love (just like their baby mama was), that they’ll call it even. Do this with about 4, 5 “empowered” independent women and your family legacy is ensured - but without the heavy burden of actually having to raise ‘em!
Go K-Fed! It’s HIGH TIME for “empowered” women to start accepting patriarchal RESPONSIBILITY, footing the bills and raising the families in this country. If they don’t need us, just our cum - give it to ‘em, and give it to ‘em HARD! Tap dat popozaooo! The new andrist icon of America! Lead us men into this next millenium!
Posted 30 Jan 2006 at 4:45 pm ¶
Gayle King wrote:
Oprah is a closeted lesbian she’s never expressed an interest in having kids. In order to do that she would have to sleep with a man. Ewww! Stedman is currently the world’s highest paid beard. Alicia’s too young to have kids and nevermind that Mariah and Halle aren’t black women, they are too nutty to be mothers.
Posted 30 Jan 2006 at 4:54 pm ¶
whatever wrote:
Gayle King you’re a fool. How do you know that Oprah’s a lesbian. And Alicia’s too young to have kids? Tell that to the teenage mothers of the world.
Posted 30 Jan 2006 at 5:10 pm ¶
Ben wrote:
The filmmakers refer to the statistic that 42.4 percent of African American women are not married…
This figure is meaningless without comparison.
The 2000 Census shows that 52.1% of American females over the age of 15 are married… that leaves 48% who are not married. Seems like African American women are doing better than average! (source)
Turns out that the article got it wrong. An interview with the producer (here) quotes the figure as a percentage of black women who have never been married. This figure, for all American women, is 24%. Now we see why the stat is noteworthy, but it’s still a leap to call it grim.
I agree with Lyonside… we can’t call it “grim” until we uncover why so many black women are never married. It seems, from the producer’s comments, that:
1) Black women are reluctant, for various reasons, to marry non-black men, and
2) Black men, on average, and for various reasons, do not meet their standards.
Much energy is expended addressing #2, but #1 is often taken for granted. So I’m psyched to see the film challenge black women’s reluctance to marry non-black men :)
Posted 30 Jan 2006 at 5:28 pm ¶
Bertrum says wrote:
Well–Ben, my only response is to ask “who is reluctant to marry whom?” Black female/White male coupling is nothing new. This type of coupling has been going on “safely” for years. (I don’t recall any black women hanging from trees for smiling at white men-or even carrying a white man’s baby). In fact the Supreme Court case banning misecegination laws, Loving v. Va, involved a white man married to a black women.
Because traditionally, men ask women to marry them, I find it hard to believe that a black woman desiring marriage would turn down a proposal from a suitable mate–just because he is white. Could it be that white males (who have exhibited no hesitation in coupling with balck women–even good ol’ strom) just aren’t as inclined to marry black women as their black male counterparts in interracial relationships. I don’t know the answer, I’m just posing the question.
I do know that, contrary to stereotypes, black women have and will continue to engage in interracial relationships with white men. The reason why so few end up in marriage is a question I will not pretend to know the answer to.
Posted 30 Jan 2006 at 6:32 pm ¶
James Frey wrote:
whatever, you must be one of the Oprahcult hausfraus. Nevermind it’s not worth arguing with your kind. Go back to your ah-ha moments and fake memoirs.
Oprah=lesbian.
Do you understand?
Posted 30 Jan 2006 at 7:11 pm ¶
RL_Model wrote:
I am slightly skeptical that many black women really approach interracial dating through a master-slave paradigm. But if so, no wonder so few marry outside of their race.
I am also surprised by the relationship between socioeconomic status and marriage rates. It seems to me that educated, upwardly mobile black women have less inhibitions about interracial dating. Black women exposed to eligible white men in social or work environments, I would think would look more favorably upon white partners. I am sure there are other factors that would explain this as some have noted.
By the way, I find it implausible that any woman, anywhere would look twice at a black guy after Simon walks into the room.
Posted 30 Jan 2006 at 7:56 pm ¶
Susan Ayoob wrote:
Gayle King, forget the Oprah’s closeted comment and Alicia being too young to have kids. This is Mixed Media Watch, and we tend to consider Mariah and Halle as mixed, rather than not black. Remember, you can be mixed and still belong to your community of color, just as Halle and Mariah do.
Posted 30 Jan 2006 at 8:01 pm ¶
Merq wrote:
Why is Alicia Keys considered black, while Mariah and Halle are not? Unless I’m wrong, they’re all biracial. So if one’s “black,” shouldn’t the other two?
Of course, it isn’t actually your call to make. And since all three women choose to identify themselves as black, you may have to find another theory to support your point… whatever that was.
So far, y’all have put up some very insightful points. I definitely like the fact that Sanaa went for the white male for love, and not for that old “they’re all either married or in prison” nonsense we hear all too often.
What troubles me is what I’ve heard from some black women… pretty much something to the effect of white men being “the new black.” I’m in Manhattan, and certain women speak of it like it’s some symbol of “cosmopolitan cool.”
I try to ask each one if she ever found out a previous white lover was only with her because he fetishized her as a sexually advanced “hot black chick,” and if so, if she remembers how it felt to be fetishized.
Then I suggest to them that they may well be doing the same thing to these “cosmo cool” accessory white men. They seldom have a response.
Posted 30 Jan 2006 at 8:20 pm ¶
Ben wrote:
@Bertrum: I said “it seems, from the producer’s comments, that Black women are reluctant to marry white men.”
In the article I linked to (perhaps too discreetly - click here to read it), she said: “a lot of black women really - we feel we should be with black men. That’s our father’s are, that’s what our inclination is…” and later, “a lot of these [black] women chose to not marry than to marry outside of the race…” (if it seems like i’m cherrypicking, i blame her maddeningly excursive answer! :) )
The answer to your intriguing question might complicate the conventional wisdom surrounding the relatively low black female marriage rate. Some blame black men for being bad partners, some blame black women for being narrow-minded… but maybe we are overlooking the role of white men. (After all, aren’t they supposed to be rescuing us from our savage ways? ;) )
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 1:03 am ¶
the joy princess wrote:
I’ve come across the white men are the new pink kind of thing, but it’s usually posited as a joke just like the light-skinned/dark-skinned brothers are “out” or” in” thing that comes up every 2 to3 years. Frankly, I hope we get more of these pairings so I can stop being so cheesily excited when they come up (while we’re at it I’d still like to see more “black on black” love too). Either way, I’ve always felt that black women need to make like Skittles and taste the rainbow!
I haven’t been sure about the writer’s oft-quoted 42.4% stat since I first saw her quoted repeating that stat in 2003 when she sold the story. But on their web site, using Census data, The Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies cites it this way: ” Between 1950 and 2000, the percentage of never-married black women doubled, from 20.7% to 42.4%.” And I saw the stat on the Census’ site itself as 42.4% of black women 15+ have never been married, compared to 21.3% of white women 15+, for example –all for 2000.
Anyways, I prefer not to wonder too much why sisters aren’t marrying more until the day I wake up and I’m an unmarried 50 year old black woman, LOL — and not so by choice.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 2:31 am ¶
Nina wrote:
>>>HOWEVER, post-feminist women in particular tend to prefer “bad boys” moreso than ever. Black women these days are particularly known for this - preferring ruffnecks to white-collars.>>>
That is the biggest, continuous lie that I keep hearing about women. Who are these women that prefer “ruffnecks” and “bad boys” over white collar men? Please! Maybe some of these 20-something “hip-hop” generation girls, but women in their 30’s? No way!
This movie touches on the fact that most professional women run into problems because they want a man with comparable education and income. Black women especially have always been lectured about having standards that are “too high” or slammed as “materialistic” if they want a professional man — the old “give a brother a chance argument.” “Brother” meaning the electrician or bus driver of course.
So, I just don’t get this assertion that black women are especially looking for “ruffnecks” or “bad boys”. It doesn’t add up.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 9:33 am ¶
Bertrum says wrote:
Well-Nina, I agree that the “all black women want ruff-necks” is overdone. But unfortunately it is constantly reinforced, from songs like Lyte’s “Ruffneck” to Beyonce’s “Soldier” as well as everyday life, especially among younger females.
As for the movie touching on Black women’s desire for a mate compatible in income and profession, the movie actually undermines your argument. In the movie Sanaa Latham has a choice between a black law professor and a white landscaper. She chooses the white male who is less compatible in income/education. I guess its a case of the ol’ “give a white guy a chance” argument.
Clearly there are a lot of stereotypes, accusations, and assumptions at play between black men and women–especially on the topic of interracial relationships. I’m just glad the movie appears to stay away from many of them.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 10:31 am ¶
Lyonside wrote:
Hey Nina:
Speaking for a lot of electicians (including my dad), you can make good money as an electrician. My grandfather and my uncle were/are machinists/mechanics with Amtrak. My husband is a commercial License B driver (meaning he drives refrigerated trucks, not tractor trailers) and he makes MORE than I do with my white collar job and college education.
I’ve tried to boost up my younger cousin for years because he will be a blue collar worker while his older brother appears college-bound. I remind him how poor his brother will be for YEARS after college, while he’ll be able to pay for that car and put a down payment on a house before he’s 30.
Blue collar/skilled labor does not equal roughneck, ghetto, uneducated or poor.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 11:11 am ¶
Dr. Phildo wrote:
Well-Nina, I agree that the “all black women want ruff-necks” is overdone. But unfortunately it is constantly reinforced, from songs like Lyte’s “Ruffneck” to Beyonce’s “Soldier” as well as everyday life, especially among younger females.
AMEN brutha! When was the last time you heard a song by a sista glorifying degreed pencil-pushers? No, if women all want “12″ to a yard” rent-a-thugs to “shoop,” then that’s what they get!
She chooses the white male who is less compatible in income/education. I guess its a case of the ol’ “give a white guy a chance” argument.
Actually, this is simply the cross-cultural template for ALL romantic chick flix tho, regardless of race. You’ll notice that the female is ALWAYS faced with the choice between a rich successful guy she’s “supposed to be with” vs an underachieving poor guy that she “truly loves.” And she always chooses the latter…at least in the movies. Or Britney Spears’ life! Go K-Fed!! Run yo game, brutha!!! ^5
So, women just need to quit whining about the choices they make in life - or make different ones. They have more choices than ever before in post-fem America, and if they can’t handle that freedom then who’s fault is that?
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 11:27 am ¶
mr guy wrote:
“Well-Nina, I agree that the “all black women want ruff-necks” is overdone. But unfortunately it is constantly reinforced, from songs like Lyte’s “Ruffneck” to Beyonce’s “Soldier” as well as everyday life, especially among younger females”
I’ve heard that only from women who like “thugs” guys.You know bad boy types.But as a black man, I must say that those type of women are not the majority.Even with young 20 something girls in the “hood”.At least the ones I have met.
As for the white collar thing, well I’m not exactly white collar myself even though I almost finished earning my degree, so I guess white collar professional black women are out of the picture. That’s cool, plenty of blue collar women of all races to go around for me :)
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 12:55 pm ¶
van wrote:
Im a black man and I have full physical custody of my son whos mother is white. She and I arent together and since then I seem to get looks from some, not all, black women that seem to say,” Oh, he messes around with white girls.” Whats the fairness in that. I cook and crochet too but does that make me a homosexual, not at all. I have no problem with interracial relationship and many people dont classify a white man married to, lets say a white lady from south africa as being interracial. Technically she is an African American, regardless of color. Now lets say for a second you were blind. How would you go about having a relationship then. Its whats inside, how you would be treated, what that person did for you that would make all the difference. For women who like thugs I fit that category too even though I own my own house and Im only 32. Ive got 7 long years in the military and have been trained how to put a stop to you average street thugs so whos tougher, if thats what they are looking for. This color issue is taught. Children see people for who they are and color doesnt matter. why cant we as grown adults see like our children.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 1:52 pm ¶
Nina wrote:
>>Well-Nina, I agree that the “all black women want ruff-necks” is overdone. But unfortunately it is constantly reinforced, from songs like Lyte’s “Ruffneck” to Beyonce’s “Soldier” as well as everyday life, especially among younger females. >>
Well Bertram, Lyte’s “Ruffneck is easily 17-20 years old now and Beyonce is a sheltered 24 year old singer whose experiences do not speak to most black women — especially 30ish professional women. Personally, I hate that song and that sentiment.
I think there are a lot of stereotypes and assumptions about black men and women.
The owner of this site pointed out a big flaw in the movie: once again, a black woman has to “choose” between the “good brother” and the “white guy”. Same thing for Mixing Nia (the lead character was biracial) and even Dorothy West’s “The Wedding” where the black woman has to choose between a wealthier black man and a poorer white man.
My gripe is that this is not usually the scenario. Many black women wait years a black man and if anything, a white man is held to a higher standard financially/professionally. I don’t think the portrayals are realistic in that sense.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 1:56 pm ¶
Nina wrote:
>>>I don’t recall any black women hanging from trees for smiling at white men-or even carrying a white man’s baby).>>>
No, but they did hang from trees. Sometimes pregnant. Sometimes with the baby ripped from their womb. Black women were hanged for trivial offenses too.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 1:58 pm ¶
Nina wrote:
Lyonside:
I do know that blue collar/skilled labor does not always equal roughneck, ghetto, uneducated or poor — but sometimes it does — your dad notwithstanding.
Even if they are not “roughneck” or “ghetto”, many blue-collar men have issues with professional women and would not always go for a woman who makes more money than they do — it’s a two-street.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 2:01 pm ¶
Nina wrote:
>>>AMEN brutha! When was the last time you heard a song by a sista glorifying degreed pencil-pushers? No, if women all want “12″ to a yard” rent-a-thugs to “shoop,” then that’s what they get!>>
Angie Stone, Jill Scott and Alicia Keys w/Eve have all made songs called “Brother” in which they extol all types of black men. It’s not about “glorifying degreed pencil-pushers”, but good men in general.
And what do women get? Kanye West’s “Golddigga”; Nelly swiping a credit card through the crack of a woman’s behind.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 2:06 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:
>Lyonside:I do know that blue collar/skilled labor does not always equal roughneck, ghetto, uneducated or poor – but sometimes it does – your dad notwithstanding.
It’s not just my father - it’s my brothers who are Army Staff Seargeants, aforementioned cousins, uncles… my husband is 30, my brothers are in their 40s, my father’s in his 60s.
White vs. blue collar is too simple, and in our post-industrial economy, is making less and less sense. What happens to the white collar job (i.e. foreman, manager, etc.) with blue collar skills (started on the factory floor)? What about my job, where I need the white collar office skills and spend 60% of my time in the office, but driving, digging, walking, wading, and other physical acts are part of my job (I do environmental consulting work)?
Honestly, the more I think about it, it’s about class and education, not race or profession. And the minute I take anything a pop/R&B singer says seriously is the day I become the vapid masses.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 2:37 pm ¶
Bertrum says wrote:
Well–Nina, I certainly did not intend to imply that Black women never suffered or were not lynched–but I was merely making the point that Black women coupling with White males wasn’t a crime that would elicit such punishment–whereas even looking at a White woman “wrong” could be deadly for Black men.
—Well Bertram, Lyte’s “Ruffneck is easily 17-20 years old now and Beyonce is a sheltered 24 year old singer whose experiences do not speak to most black women – especially 30ish professional women. Personally, I hate that song and that sentiment.—-
Glad to hear that, and I realize you are in the majority (my wife, like you chose a goal oriented brother and not a thug). But the fact that Ruff-neck is 17 years old just shows how long we’ve been spoon fed this drivel that Black men must be “hard,” “street” or “have a little thug in him” to be attractive to black women. Unfortunately alot of behavioral cues come from cultural influences like music. For example, the rapper Cam’ron began wearing pink clothing early last year, by summer time grown men who’d never in a million years would have worn that color (at least not in public), were wearing it–and lots of it. So even though Beyonce does not represent most professional black women–she does influence young black girls who may grow into professional black women. This may be why, as I stated earlier, younger women seem to have an affinity for the “ruff-neck” appeal.
I understand your frustration with Sanaa having to choose the “poor white guy” (a la Halle in “wedding”). But as one poster, Dr. Phildro pointed out, this seems to be a staple plot device for romantic movies–the woman must chose between wealthy guy who can offer everything but true love, and the broke guy who can only offer her love. So much for offering something new
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 4:09 pm ¶
Bertrum says wrote:
I do find it somewhat interesting though that the first movie written by, directed by, and starring black women focuses on interracial relationships in particular. Given Will Smith’s famous lament that hollywood believes that black men and women expressing love on screen was not marketable, was the interracial aspect of this movie a marketing ploy. As Lyonside’s posts point out, many professional sisters could find something new in dating non-white collar black men. The movie could have explored that dynamic without the reference to race—but I guess nobody would want to see that film according to conventional hollywood wisdom.
By the way and completely off topic, I think one of the best love films is “love jones” which was written and directed by a Black man and starred two black leads.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 4:41 pm ¶
Nina wrote:
I agree that it is more about class and education, not race or profession.
As far as taking things seriously from a pop/R&B singer — glad to hear that you’re above the fray, but the fact is the things that they say (in song, etc.) are taken very seriously — especially by young people.
Even though I’m in my 30s, I take lyrics very seriuously — especially when a pattern emerges that is influential and impacts society (i.e. bitches/hoes/pimpin in lyrics and videos. It does have an impact.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 5:19 pm ¶
Nina wrote:
>>>Well–Nina, I certainly did not intend to imply that Black women never suffered or were not lynched–but I was merely making the point that Black women coupling with White males wasn’t a crime that would elicit such punishment–whereas even looking at a White woman “wrong” could be deadly for Black men. >>>>
I’m glad you clarified that. I was a little worried at first.
>>>… the fact that Ruff-neck is 17 years old just shows how long we’ve been spoon fed this drivel that Black men must be “hard,” “street” or “have a little thug in him” to be attractive to black women. >>>
It is still the most ridiculous notion to me. Most black women with any sense don’t want a “ruffneck” they want a grown man that knows what he’s doing.
>>>So even though Beyonce does not represent most professional black women–she does influence young black girls who may grow into professional black women. This may be why, as I stated earlier, younger women seem to have an affinity for the “ruff-neck” appeal.>>>
Sad, but true
>>>I understand your frustration with Sanaa having to choose the “poor white guy” (a la Halle in “wedding”). But as one poster, Dr. Phildro pointed out, this seems to be a staple plot device for romantic movies–the woman must chose between wealthy guy who can offer everything but true love, and the broke guy who can only offer her love. So much for offering something new >>>
I think he made a good point, but the fact is, it’s hard to compare black women and white women in this regard. We will never see the movie where a white woman has to choose between the poor black man she loves and the rich white guy that she “should” be with. The movie would end with her saying, “Uh, Leon, it was nice to meet you…. but I’m gonna go with Steve…
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 5:28 pm ¶
Nina wrote:
>>>The movie could have explored that dynamic without the reference to race—but I guess nobody would want to see that film according to conventional hollywood wisdom.>>>
Exactly. I believe it was the actress Nia Long that said when you have a white male lead and a white female lead, you have a love story. When you have a black male lead and a black female lead — you have a black movie.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 5:31 pm ¶
Anonymous wrote:
James Frya what a troll you are. Why don’t you do something new, like get a life!!
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 6:20 pm ¶
whatever wrote:
James Frye, why don’t you OD already!!
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 6:21 pm ¶
I'm not sure... wrote:
In response to RL’s comments, I’m not too sure if educated, upwardly mobile black women are more inclined to date outside their race. They might have more oppotunity to, given their interaction with men of various ethnic backgrounds. But I’ve heard such woman often complain of the lack of ‘brothers’ to date, or if their is a ‘brotha’ working at the same company as them, such men are usually with non-black women. They seem intent on finding a mate of similar ethnic background.
Also, a lot of white men who are ambitious in their careers, tend to view an interracial relationship ( black/white relationship) as a barrier to economic and social success. I saw a 60 minutes program a couple years back where this business man (white) married a black woman from Atlanta who came from a prominent black family. (sorry I can’t remember the name). The couple moved to Palm Beach and he subsequently divorced his wife because he found their interacial marriage a hinderance to his aspirations to fully enter Palm Beach’s exclusive social circles. He later married an asian woman (I guess she was more acceptable) and was later charged with killing his ex-wife. He fled to Mexico to evade jail time but was found a number of years later. Of course not all interracial marriages between white men black women end like this, but I just thought I would give everyone something to chew on.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 6:35 pm ¶
Merq wrote:
“By the way, I find it implausible that any woman, anywhere would look twice at a black guy after Simon walks into the room. ”
I find it interesting that the poster felt the need to specifically refer to “a black guy”– in other words, stating that Simon Baker is far more attractive than most/all black men, but white men are a different story.
Or rather, I would find that interesting if that statement came from anyone else.
“I’ve come across the white men are the new pink kind of thing, but it’s usually posited as a joke just like the light-skinned/dark-skinned brothers are “out” or” in” thing that comes up every 2 to3 years.”
I have to say, I’m afraid that was seldom the case with my experiences. I’ve heard many of the women in question refer to themselves as “not the average black woman.” One has to wonder what their idea of the average sista is.
“For example, the rapper Cam’ron began wearing pink clothing early last year, by summer time grown men who’d never in a million years would have worn that color (at least not in public), were wearing it–and lots of it. ”
Dude, you’re a genius! I did a web-documentary on race, and that was one of the points I touched on. While we may all glory in being beyond the reach of popular culture, the fact is there’s a reason it’s *called* “popular.” It influences millions of America’s (and indeed, the world’s) youth, and has to be taken into account.
“Angie Stone, Jill Scott and Alicia Keys w/Eve have all made songs called “Brother” in which they extol all types of black men. It’s not about “glorifying degreed pencil-pushers”, but good men in general.
And what do women get? Kanye West’s “Golddigga”; Nelly swiping a credit card through the crack of a woman’s behind. ”
You make it sound like they did a total of three songs; they collaborated on one (two, if you count the original version). I remember when “Brotha” came out, and I remember how refreshing it was to hear something that actually depicted black men as having some worth. After the Kandi Burrus/She’kspeare barrage of “Bills/Scrubs”-type songs, it was generally accepted that “Brotha”-type songs were a rarity.
While I won’t dispute the disrespect (black) women have to deal with in popular music, let’s not pretend the brothas are being exalted to the high heavens.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 6:49 pm ¶
Bertrum says wrote:
[We will never see the movie where a white woman has to choose between the poor black man she loves and the rich white guy that she “should” be with. The movie would end with her saying, “Uh, Leon, it was nice to meet you…. but I’m gonna go with Steve…]
Well–that would be quite a movie. But lets be real Nina, we’ll never see a movie where a white woman chooses a black man over a white man period, regardless of whether the black male outshines the white male in financial status, personality, looks, character, spirituality, decency, etc. That movie will not be made in america anytime soon.
In contrast, Something New, for all our discussion of it, has not been met with much “controversy.” Now if you want controversy, have a movie where a white professional woman (played by Reese Witherspoon, Julia Roberts, Nicole Kidman or Natalie Portman) chooses a less affluent black man–say a landacaper (played by Blair Underwood, Terence howard, or Derek Luke) over an affluent white lawyer (played by Brad Pitt, Simon Baker, Eric Bana etc.) I’m not sure this movie would even get if the race/gender roles were reversed.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 6:54 pm ¶
Adrianna wrote:
Thank God for this movie. It’s about time, they made this movie. Maybe it will open some minds. It is after all the 21st century. It’s from colorism or pigmentism people suffer from not racism . Race does not exist. As a Carribean women I think that color should no longer play a part when we fall for someone. It should be their values and the way they treat you As a black woman I think black women should date anyone they like regardless of color, ethnicity. Hopefully African-American women will open their hearts to color blind love.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 7:26 pm ¶
Ben wrote:
Even though I’m in my 30s, I take lyrics very seriuously – especially when a pattern emerges that is influential and impacts society (i.e. bitches/hoes/pimpin in lyrics and videos. It does have an impact.
art imitates life, life imitates art…
pity that they each highlight such negative aspects of each other.
Posted 31 Jan 2006 at 8:07 pm ¶
Nina wrote:
>>>>“By the way, I find it implausible that any woman, anywhere would look twice at a black guy after Simon walks into the room. ”
I find it interesting that the poster felt the need to specifically refer to “a black guy”– in other words, stating that Simon Baker is far more attractive than most/all black men, but white men are a different story.>>>
Whoa! I missed that before.
Simon Baker is not that good looking to me. It is absolutely NOT implausible that any woman would look twice at a black guy after Simon walks in the room. Especially if that black guy looks anything like Henry Simmons or Derek Luke or Boris Kodjoe or even a Harry Lennix, whose obvious intelligence makes him that much more attractive. Simon would be invisible to me in that room.
Posted 01 Feb 2006 at 10:00 am ¶
212Socialite wrote:
“Of course not all interracial marriages between white men black women end like this, but I just thought I would give everyone something to chew on.”
When I saw the reference to the Jim Sullivan Case, I could not resist responding. I don’t know, I think you are kind leaving a lot unsaid. The divorce and murder for hire scheme wasn’t about racism or social climbing, it was about greed, pure and simple. Sullivan had inherited about $5,000,000 (poverty by PB standards) from an uncle and had a string of failed investments, not to mention all the previous ex-wives who had nailed him for alimony. His subsequent marriage to Suki what’s her name certainly didn’t endear him to the social set there. Asian women weren’t any more acceptable than Black women to the people who “mattered” back then.
I am biracial too and my father’s family used to have a winter home in Palm Beach. In the 1980’s, it was the last unabashedly WASP community left in the US, and yes it still has a reputation for racism and virulent anti-Semitism-they didn’t even start letting Catholics into the clubs down there until after WWII, and they don’t allow Jews, even as guests. Even if you’re white, if your family isn’t in the Social Register, you’re not going to be accepted (they don’t even like Donald Trump!). The town was basically created as a playground for the old eastern seaboard families and “new money” like the Sullivans is frowned upon.
My mother, who is black once attended a charity auction at one of the restricted clubs there. Some of the old-timers sat there stone-faced as she walked in, but when they heard who her husband was, they fawned over her like the phonies they are. She spotted one other brown face (a Miami artist and friend of Columba Bush) and they chatted for a while. She couldn’t figure out why so many people fall all over themselves to gain acceptance at a dowdy club with outdated facilities and bad food, lol.
I agree with RL-Model’s post. If you’re a Black woman the more chances you have to interact with men of other races, the more open you’d be to choosing a partners of another race (just a guess I don’t have any data to support this). And “educated, upwardly mobile black women” do come into contact with White men more often than not. I understand that there are some Black women who would much rather find a Black spouse, but I have seen more and morre professional Black women who have no problem seeking White partners.
And 1980’s Palm Beach is hardly typical of White Male-Black female interaction. While you may be right that some white men view interracial relationships and a barrier to advancement, there are many who don’t hold such pretensions or who may have but change their views after working and living amongst those who challenge their preconceived notions. If you’re going to bring up the Sullivan case, what about all the other White men who divorce their White wives for women with more money, better pedigrees or larger breasts?
My parents never viewed their marriage as a social hindrance, and if others did that was their problem. They didn’t want to be bothered with people who didn’t want to be bothered with them.
Posted 01 Feb 2006 at 10:12 am ¶
Nina wrote:
Merq: You make it sound like they did a total of three songs; they collaborated on one (two, if you count the original version). I remember when “Brotha” came out, and I remember how refreshing it was to hear something that actually depicted black men as having some worth. After the Kandi Burrus/She’kspeare barrage of “Bills/Scrubs”-type songs, it was generally accepted that “Brotha”-type songs were a rarity. While I won’t dispute the disrespect (black) women have to deal with in popular music, let’s not pretend the brothas are being exalted to the high heavens.
Nina: I was not pretending that brothers were being exalted to the high heavens. I was responding to the comment below:
>>>AMEN brutha! When was the last time you heard a song by a sista glorifying degreed pencil-pushers? No, if women all want “12″ to a yard” rent-a-thugs to “shoop,” then that’s what they get!>>
Merq: I have to say, I’m afraid that was seldom the case with my experiences. I’ve heard many of the women in question refer to themselves as “not the average black woman.” One has to wonder what their idea of the average sista is.
Nina: While I’m sure there are indeed some women who would say that with ego, there are also some who may be referring to the primary images of black women that are out there (i.e. “golddiggers”, “baby mamas”, video “dancers”) It could mean anything.
Posted 01 Feb 2006 at 10:17 am ¶
I'm not sure wrote:
212, I think if you read my post again you will see that we agree on some points.
I wasn’t trying to suggest that educated black women don’t date outside their race. I stated that because of their interaction with white men in the corporate sector, they have more of an opprtunity to enter an interracial relationship as opposed to black women who are employed in work places where there is not much diversity. So I agree with you and RL on that point, however just as there are many educated black women who would not shrink away from the possibility of dating outside their race (because of their contact on the job or at school with men of various ethinc backgrounds), there are just as many educated black women who prefer and stubbornly seek out black mates. There is nothing wrong with these women desiring to date a man of a similar background, nor is there anything wrong with other black women choosing to date a man of a different background. That is not what I was trying to suggest, and I ‘m sorry if you interpreted my statements that way. I am also biracial. My parents met at college, the place many people first experience diversity. They overcame their ethnic backgrounds and treated each other as individuals (although my mother recently told me that she preferenced black men).
As for the Sullivan case…I saw the program on 60 minutes roughly two years ago, so forgive me if my memory was a bit hazy. But if I recall correctly, the dead woman’s family implied on the program that race as well as greed was the motivating factor for Sullivan’s murder. Sullivan wanted to enter Palm Beach society. You yourself noted how very elitist Palm Beach society is. Sullivan’s wife was a barrier to his advancement. The fact that she had money was further incentive for him to get rid of her. People are complex and their motivations for acting can be as equally complex. But my characterization of Sullivan’s motivation for killing his first wife was based on her family’s assertions which were featured on 60 minutes.
And again, I do not mean to suggest that black women and white men can’t have healthy relationships. My only point was to note that just because educated black women might have contact with men of different backgrounds does not mean they have or will develop a greater desire for these men or will date these men. Nor does white men’s interaction with black women, necessarily mean that they will develop a greater interest in entering an interracial relationship. Family opinion, peer pressure, career advancement can not be discounted as barriers to interracial relationships when looked at from the perspective of some white men. I remember a couple of months ago watching a news report on BBC on Princess Diana’s two sons. When asked what type of woman he might consider marrying, “Prince” Harry replied, “Well she definitely won’t be African.”
Posted 01 Feb 2006 at 6:03 pm ¶
RL_Model wrote:
Socialite, that story about your mother is hilarious. I once dated a guy from Palm Beach, and yes, the town is crawling with phonies and sycophants, although it’s quite humorous to observe, isn’t it?
Nina, honestly, it was just a joke, but come on Simon is undeniably handsome-the accent doesn’t hurt either.
I’m not sure, I think Socialite’s point was that white men and black women secure enough in themselves will overlook racial barriers when selecting a mate regardless of the pressures which you mentioned they may face. And I think we can all agree on that.
Posted 01 Feb 2006 at 8:02 pm ¶
john wrote:
I would love to love this movie. I would love to move toward a race free society, but at the same time, movies like this can’t help themselves by putting down the black man.
I am a straight single black male with no kids and I date black women, but they ready to dump me for things like “i don’t go to church, and I need a man with faith in my life,” or you work too much, or your too affectionate, or you don’t dress fresh every day of the week, or you want too much sex. I’ve been lucky and met some fatanstic women, and I’m not without problems, but some of the reasons they damage our relationships are ridiculous.
Women always want 10% more than you have, and the media has helped inflame this thought that there is something better around the corner, and that the way to choose a man is by wether he has a fresh hair cut everyday, and fresh clothes and acts brutually cool. I sit back and observe and laugh at the farce, and ignore the phone calls of these exes that go and kiss a few frogs then want to come back.
Now where is that russian mail-order bride website?
Posted 02 Feb 2006 at 11:11 am ¶
Nina wrote:
RL_Model, I still thiink that Simon is just okay… but I am a sucker for an accent.
Posted 02 Feb 2006 at 12:07 pm ¶
Lyonside wrote:
>Women always want 10% more than you have, and the media has helped inflame this thought that there is something better around the corner, and that the way to choose a man is by wether he has a fresh hair cut everyday, and fresh clothes and acts brutually cool. I sit back and observe and laugh at the farce, and ignore the phone calls of these exes that go and kiss a few frogs then want to come back.
Um, no woman I know in the LTR wants/expects this. I know I say this a lot here (to at least 1 other person), but I think you need a new circle of people… i.e. you need to get out more.
Posted 02 Feb 2006 at 12:09 pm ¶
Anonymous wrote:
>>>>>“By the way, I find it implausible that any woman, anywhere would look twice at a black guy after Simon walks into the room. ”>>>>
>>>>”Nina, honestly, it was just a joke, “>>>>
suuure it was. i believe you.
Posted 02 Feb 2006 at 5:01 pm ¶
ken wrote:
the underlying message of this film is that
glorified gardener= proffessional brotha.
i just ask myself what people would say if the sexes were reversed?
also why is it that black female institutions like essence who are well known for their disdain of black men dating interracially are heavily promoting this flick?
do you think that white male owned institutions like BET or essence would promote this (or the guess who remake) so much if the sexes were reversed?
why do so many black men catch flak if black women think like this
why have a list for perfect black man if your willing to take any white man that comes your way?
if the white dude was black she would probably have dismissed him for not meeting her criteria. ironic isnt it?
dont these people understand a good woman is a good woman regardless of colour? surely the time will come when the woman will look at themselves before they blame others for being alone.
Posted 04 Feb 2006 at 4:24 pm ¶
Michelle wrote:
Kudos to the producer, director, writer, cast and crew of the fabulous movie “Something New”! I hope that it will encourage those looking for true love, to not limit themselves and not to “judge a book by its cover”. As a 36-year old, professional (MBA), African-American female, I really identified with the main character. Last year, I married my ISM (Ideal Soul Mate), who happens to be a wonderful, white man who loves me for me. For those who question the 42% statistic, it’s real. Loneliness is real. True love and joy is real too. If anything, I hope that the movie encourages everyone, regardless of color, to go after true love, no matter what color it shows up in.
Posted 05 Feb 2006 at 2:20 pm ¶
Nina wrote:
>>also why is it that black female institutions like essence who are well known for their disdain of black men dating interracially are heavily promoting this flick?>>
Sounds like you’re the one with the disdain. I’ve seen this flick “heavily promoted” on lots of sites with youngish traffic (i.e. http://www.gawker.com, etc.)
>>>do you think that white male owned institutions like BET or essence would promote this (or the guess who remake) so much if the sexes were reversed?>>>
Sure they would — depending on the actor. Essence likes Sanaa Lathan. I doubt if it were Kerry Washington in the role, they would promote it more. Essence, like most other media, is very political. They have their favorites and Sanaa is one of them.
The point is that the ball is in the man’s court — and it has been for sometime. That’s why 42.4% of black men aren’t sitting around wondering why they aren’t married.
Black men marry interracially in higher numbers and obviously have much less trepidation about it.
>>>why do so many black men catch flak if black women think like this
why have a list for perfect black man if your willing to take any white man that comes your way?>>>
You sound bitter here… like you’ve been passed over by some woman whom you feel should have been grateful to have you cross her path.
You also make it sound like black men don’t have ideals that they follow when looking for a mate.
>>>if the white dude was black she would probably have dismissed him for not meeting her criteria. ironic isnt it?>>>
Nope — black women have been crossing class lines in dating for decades — often for the sake of marrying black. This movie does not represent most black women even if they date interracially.
>>dont these people understand a good woman is a good woman regardless of colour? surely the time will come when the woman will look at themselves before they blame others for being alone. >>>
Let’s hope that men do the same.
Posted 06 Feb 2006 at 1:48 pm ¶
Kristin wrote:
Personally, i think that Black women should date White men. White men are so attractive and they treat you much better than any Black thugs could. Especially considering the fact that i am light skinned, i often feel used by them. Currently, I’m in a relationship with a White man.
Wake up Black women and ditch the stupid Black guys. They do not deserve our love whatsoever.
Posted 08 Feb 2006 at 10:44 pm ¶
Oh Please!!! wrote:
Grow up Kristin. Not all Black men are thugs and not all White men treat women well. Ugliness can be found in all groups. Perhaps if you had stopped hanging in the ghetto you would have found a black man who treated you well. But you can date whoever you want, you just shouldn’t deal in generalizations.
Posted 09 Feb 2006 at 5:13 pm ¶
eric daniels wrote:
I am getting tired hearing of the 42.6 percent of unmarried black women when the number of black men who are unmarried is 46.5 percent. The problem is that professional black women can’t find black suitors in their education or class bracket, (there are plenty of mariage eligble black men) Since marriage is a romantic and monetary construct I am of the opinion that IR marriage is going to have to be one of the options for black women as well. I am also of the opinion Black Men and Women who are in an IR relationship have no right to criticize AND spew their venom on Black Men or Black Women(after they have married IR) to me they ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM in restoring peace amongst black intraracial couples. Some of you black female posters need to get a life or go to a thearpist.
Posted 12 Feb 2006 at 12:12 am ¶
Merq wrote:
“Wake up Black women and ditch the stupid Black guys. They do not deserve our love whatsoever. ”
Kristin, right? C’mon, RL. We know it’s you! What are the odds that there are TWO biracial (or “light-skinned” black women) on this site with the same psychological issues?
Posted 14 Feb 2006 at 12:17 am ¶
M. Lines wrote:
i dont know if anyone responded to bertram about black women not receive punishment from society for their involvement with the “other”, but this too happened if you were to read any slave narrative or any of the story about New Orleans culture of freed black women and white men. you would know that black women were punished in many ways for this. usually by the white mans wife. its ok to not know something but what is so annoying is when one speak on a subject without fully researching. so i do thank nina for her early responses, its so hard when as a black female you read boards like these and you come to realize how little even black men know about our (black womens) full experience in this world. But i feel several do they just are not the ones speaking.
Posted 15 Feb 2006 at 4:05 pm ¶
Candace wrote:
John- As a biracial woman with a black mother…I can tell you that faith, spirituality and religion play a strong part in the lives of most biracial and African- American women. There are some things that we should not be willing to accept no matter how nice and hardworking you claim to be and lack of a relationship with the creator is one of them - IMO. We ain’t that deseparate that we have to just say “Oh well, at least he ain’t beating on me, he is childess and he goes to work everyday”. Please! A man with a good job and no spiritual foundation is still a problem for most sistas of color. I see nothing wrong with this.
Also, just because a woman does not want to have sex all day or even everyday does not make her a bad person, a dud or non-marriage material. If she is your wife then the 2 of you should be at a place that sexual discussions about your/her needs should not be prohibited or stifled. But expecting her to be your round the clock hoe is crazy.
Dude, before you jump into another conversation to insult women of color to make yourself appear so stellar, you need to really take a look at your issues first and it seems you have plenty.
Posted 20 Feb 2006 at 2:59 pm ¶
$tan wrote:
This ‘push’ for IR in this era of “We R the World” because “Black relationships” are struggling, is a slippery slope that will be the last straw that broke the camels back. Just as ‘Black businesses, banks, schools, neighborhoods…dating and marrying Black will become the second choice and those who do date and marry Black, will be viewed as though they haven’t been accepted by someone ‘outside the race’ ie “White”
We ‘Blacks” have to be real careful of we ask for. I am a brotha who is very eligible and plan on be with a sister when I marry. However, if this promotion continues, particular by those who have disdain for Black men and women, and causes more sisters to ‘date out’, this will cause a ripple effect and more and more brothers, like myself, to date and marry out. In the end, it will become a contest who can date and marry out the most. I don’t want to diss my sisters because yall are the finest and multi-beautiful( meaning in different shades), but I don’t think that yall will be able to “cross-over’ like Black men due to a number of stereotypes true or ununtrue. There are other reasons like Black men dominating the major sports and White women being promted more.
In conclusion, we seriously have to evaluate if we want to hold on to what the Black family have meant for our survival and how important it is as role model in this century. Malcolm X warned us about this. ‘Keep putting cream in your coffee and you soon forget you have coffee.
We have to be ‘critical thinkers and not emotiional thinkers!!!
$tan
Posted 25 Feb 2006 at 11:34 pm ¶
silverlining wrote:
The number could be 24 or 42 percent and the question is who’s got the love. Everyone has preferences for who they think they want to be with but who’s loving the sistas?
Think about it this way: My gramdmother is one of 12 children. Of the 12, five of them are women. All but one of my great aunts and uncles got married. My mother is one of 28 cousins 20 of which are women. All of the men are married. Three of the women are in committed relationships and of those three one is married to a man. That leaves 17 eligible educated single black women. 17!!!!!! This is fact not fiction. These are people I love.
When my mother went off to college my grandmother told her to get an education. When I went off to college my grandmother told me to get a husband and an education. I love my brothas and I dont blame them for my singleness. I am not an albatross because I am single. I just want romantic love. I dont need Denzel (lord knows Paula Washington probably has some stories to tell) just love. I have only dated black men until now and now that I live in Los Angeles where I have felt painfully invisible to black men, I’m allowing myself to look beyond race, for love.
Posted 05 Mar 2006 at 4:26 am ¶
Rae wrote:
Feeling you, Silverlining. I am 29 and a Black UK female. I have now stopped dating altogether for a while, as I recognised that my need for love was leading me into the hands of all sorts of ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing’. While I would love to find a Black man to treat me right, I have to admit that the majority of my experiences with Black men have been bad. I mean, even putting aside the educational and material aspiration side of things…there is a great deal of trouble and strife afflicting the Black race at large that causes conflict in the way we relate to each other on any level. Drugs, crime, family dysfunction, ignorance and poverty are ugly realities for us. Perhaps there are many who ‘make it’ through but have we really made it without positive cohesion and courage to face down the demons that assail our communities, so that everyone has a chance? I’m of the mind that if Black people cannot even show love and commitment to each other (children, grannies, sisters and brothers) on a daily basis, the natural progression is that we experience dissatisfaction with ourselves and each other and turn away into the smokescreen of these so-called ‘IR’s’ without ever really addressing what the Real problem is, which is a fundamental lack of respect and nurturing for the individual members of our race.
Posted 13 Mar 2006 at 10:13 am ¶